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sf115 25 ( +1 | -1 )
4..Qe7 in the Petroff Some people play 4...Qe7 (or 3...Qe7) again me in the petroff. This is after

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 Qe7


OR

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Qe7
which is the line I play

What do you do aganst this line?
ionadowman 71 ( +1 | -1 )
sf115... ... I highly recommend you take a look at the GK database for this line, in particular the 1900+ rating level games. So far as I can discover, there isn't a whiole lot of theory on this line, which meant that the database presented more ideas than were available from the few master games I could find.
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Qe2 the choices are 4.Nf3 or 4.d4, blocking the eventual Q-check on the e-file by Be2:
4.Nf3 Qxe4 5.Be2 or
4.d4 d3 5.Nf3 Qxe4 6.Be2
You will find that White's record on GK 1900+ is very good for 4.d4, and pretty mediocre for 4.Nf3. To what extent this is a real measure of their respective worth, I leave you to judge (I have just 1 master game that features 4.Nf3, and that was a White win).
Cheers,
Ion
sf115 3 ( +1 | -1 )
What about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Qe7?
bucklehead 153 ( +1 | -1 )
Some theory... My sources call the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 Qe7 the "Ruy Lopez Variation," apparently because it was given as an example in a 1561 Lopez work. Indeed, this variation is considered quite weak--this line, along with the "Damiano Variation" of 3...Nxe4, represented the extent of Petrov knowledge prior to Petrov and Jaenisch's explorations in the early 19th century.

Anyway, Ion is quite correct to suggest that 3...Qe7 is fairly well met with 4 d4. After a fairly natural progression such as 4. d4 d6 5. Nf3 Nxe4 6. Be2, white stands well and should complete his development without trouble; black, on the other hand, is hampered by the position of his own queen, and must waste a move getting it off the e-file in order to complete development. If this is not done prior to white achieving 0-0 and Re1, the queen's position on e7 could even become a liability.



The other line you give, 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Qe7, is a teensy bit trickier because black actually threatens to win a pawn.



However, after white executes a basic 5. Be2 (undercutting black's entire plan) black is left needing to retreat the Nf6. On 5...Nd5, ...Ne4, or ...Ng4, white can seek a quick draw with 6. Qxd4 Qb4+ and a queenswap. But since the black pawn on d4 is hard to defend, there's no sense in chomping it immediately--white can use the time to develop and let black start to feel cramped by that Qe7.
sf115 29 ( +1 | -1 )
I asked someone about the 2nd line. They said that the best move was 5. Bd3



followed by 6. 0-0 because black gets into trouble trying to stop the queen to king pin.
bucklehead 164 ( +1 | -1 )
Completely playable...maybe I'm not sure I'd prefer 5. Be3, since it leaves the pawn at e5 pinned--therefore, since the Nf6 is not under immediate threat, black can make a developmental move. 5...d5 springs to mind: again, because of the pin, white cannot respond with 6 exd6 e.p., as is typical in this line.

So let's spin this out a little: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Qe7 5. Bd3 d5 6. 0-0 Ne4 7. Nxd4 [an immediate 7. Re1 c5 and white misses his chance at capturing d4] ...Qxe5



Black has more or less "covered up" and is free to develop. An immediate 8. Re1, pressing the queen-pinning theme, is possible and could lead to a trap: 8...Qxd4?? 9. Bb5+! and black is in serious trouble. 8...Bc5 is simpler and better. And let's not forget that, in these lines anyway, black is up a pawn.

As I write this I'm double-checking it with a computer, and I think ...d5 is the killer in the Bd3 line. White needs to defend e5 *and* find a way to grab d4 in order to maintain material equality, and I'm not sure this is possible. Recall that in the main line of the Petrov's Modern Variation (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Ne4), white usually proceeds immediately with 5. Qxd4, levelling things out; the advanced e5-pawn is then very often traded against black's d-pawn. Once robbed of this opportunity by ...d5, white is tied down to the defense of this advanced outpost, a tricky business since d4 is already lost.

The more I look at it, the more I think that Bd3 is inferior. The longer white can maintain his outpost at e5, the longer black will remain cramped. Blocking the white queen's access to d4 (and shifting the recapturing burden to the Nf3) undermines this outpost.
sf115 8 ( +1 | -1 )
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Qe7 5. Bd3 d5 6. 0-0 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Qxe5 is what you have suggested but after 8. f3!!! Nf6 9. Re1 wins
misato 1 ( +1 | -1 )
8. f3??? 8. - Qxd4+
bucklehead 28 ( +1 | -1 )
Zwischenzug 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 exd4 4. e5 Qe7 5. Bd3 d5 6. 0-0 Ne4 7. Nxd4 Qxe5 8. f3??



8...Qxd4+! 9. Kh1 Nf2+! 10. Rxf2 Qxf2 and white has a decisive advantage. Without the check, of course, black's capture of the Nd4 fails to white's Bb5+.
sf115 15 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry sorry 8. f3 is really bad but after after
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nf6
3. d4 exd4
4. e5 Qe7
5. Bd3 d5
6. O-O Ne4
7. Nxd4 Qxe5
8. f3 Qxd4+
9. Kh1 Nf2+
10. Rxf2 Qxf2
I'm not convinced that 11. Nxd4 is the right move
bucklehead 16 ( +1 | -1 )
?? In your line, 11. Nxd4 is not a legal move--there is no piece on d4, and no white N can reach that square. Is there a different line you wanted to discuss?
bucklehead 21 ( +1 | -1 )
Perhaps you meant 7. Nxd4 This is a decision-point for white, though I suspect that any other move here (such as 7. Re1) would find white in difficulties after 7...c5, where black secures his pawn advantage.
sf115 7 ( +1 | -1 )
sorry (I'm not having a very good day)

I did mean:
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nf6
3. d4 exd4
4. e5 Qe7
5. Bd3 d5
6. O-O Ne4
not convinced
bucklehead 131 ( +1 | -1 )
Chess solves all problems Fair enough, sf=115 --we've all been there. Do you have another move in mind?

From a purely strategic perspective: white's problem here is that he's still a pawn down from move 3; and while black's doubled d-pawns are vulnerable, he has several immediate (and developmental) protection mechanisms: ...c5, ...Nc6, and ...Bg4 spring to mind. Even if white considers one of these d-pawns to be "in his pocket," so to speak, the d4-pawn will exert some cramping influence until it's removed.

Meanwhile, white's outpost on e5 (cramping aganst black, to be fair) is on shaky ground--it's both difficult and unwise to protect it economically with the f-pawn, and moving ahead with Bf4 seems like a clogging of the developmental arteries. Re1 is of course attractive, but has no effect while black's Ne4 stands in the way. So there are challenges.

For another perspective, let's strip away the pieces (and black's d4 pawn) and look at the pawn skeleton:



I think I'd prefer black's side here, even if you assume a prior ...0-0 and put black's king on g7--because black is a move closer to bringing his K to the battleground around e5, and white is far away from bringing his K to challenge black's queenside majority.

Of course, this is completely hypothetical, but I guess that's what it's all about.
sf115 18 ( +1 | -1 )
yes, the pawn structure may slightly favour black but white has better piece play, which is more important. This also gives white attacking chances.
bucklehead 90 ( +1 | -1 )
Perhaps the scary word "Petrov"... ...is frightening away other potential commentators. I wonder what evaluations others may have of this position, since it appears that sf115 and I are at variance.



It seems that sf115 is arguing that white needs not proceed with Nxd4, but may instead rely on his advantageously posted pieces to press an attack; I would argue that white, not yet having sufficient compensation for the pawn, needs to waste time with a recapture, and which black can use to develop into equality, at least. (I'd also argue that 5. Be2 is the superior move, but we can leave that aside.)

What say you all, learned commentators of GK?
sf115 2 ( +1 | -1 )
what about Re1?
calmrolfe 129 ( +1 | -1 )
First things first, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 there is only one correct continuation and that is d6, any other reply is relatively weak for Black, hence Qe7 (placing the Queen on the same file as the King) is a weak move and deserves to be punished. The strongest continuation would seem to be 4.d4 d6 5.Nf3 Qxe4+ 6.Be2 Bf5 7.c4 Be7 8.0-0 0-0.

Other tries include 4. d4 Qxe4+ 5.Be2 d5 6.0-0 Bg4 7.Bb5 with good position for White.

I am aware of 86 master games that have started 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 and these have resulted in 44 wins for White, 26 draws and 16 wins for Black. Not a very promising opening for Black given those sort of results. Ratings wise, the leading Black exponent of these moves would seem to be Vladimir Afromeev 2547 who unleashed this opening twice in the Tula Stek Cup in 2004 and the shock value brought him two wins ! Since then he seems to have put the opening into his back pocket, perhaps for a future surprise !!

Playing Blitz as White I have encountered 3.....Qe7 several times and I can't remember it ever working against me, although in fairness I haven't met it OTB over a longer time frame.

For my money, 3.....d6 is the ONLY move I would make in the Petroff, and the Petroff is my most solid defence of preference when drawn against strong players.
calmrolfe 43 ( +1 | -1 )
Quite the most horrible attempt to play 3...Qe7 came in the following game. The glorious Black player had better remain anonymous lest he suffers nightmares when I show his magnificent (but alas fruitless) attempt to take White unawares......1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.d4 d6 5.Nf3 Nxe4 6. Be2 Bg4 7. 0-0 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Ng5 9.Re1 Ne6 10.d5 g6 11.dxe6 fxe6 12.Bd5 Nd7 13.Rxe6 at which point the Arbiter closed all the windows as a precaution lest there be a nasty accident......
sf115 5 ( +1 | -1 )
what about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 Qe7 4. d4 Nxe4?

sf115
ionadowman 90 ( +1 | -1 )
How about 5.Bd3... In response to sf114, his suggestion of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 Qe7 4.d4 Nxe4 White plays 5.Bd3, The move is played in other lines of the Petrov that features ...Nxe4, and it seems to be just as appropriate here.
Black may either counterattack the N on e5, or defend the N on e4.
b
1). 5...d6 (the counterattack) 6.0-0!? (Maybe the obvious 6.Bxe4 is better, but I'm intrigued by this line...) 6...Nf2!? 7.Rxf2 dxe5 8.dxe5 Nc6 9.Nc3 Nxe5 10.Bf4 Nxd3 (say) 11.Qxd3 ...
White remains a pawn short for the moment, but look at boths sides' respective development! White is threatening 12.Re2, 12.Nb5 and 12.Nd5... It don't look easy for Black!
2). 5...d5 (the defence) 6.Bxe4 (6.0-0 looks playable) 6...dxe4 7.Nc3 Nd7 (say. 7...f5 doesn't look too flash after 8.Qh5+) 8.Bf4, threatening something like 8...f6 9.Nd5 Qf7 10.Nxc7+.
Or Black might try 7...Bf5 8.Nd5!? Qd6 9.c4, with 10.Bf4 coming up.
All round, it looks pretty good for White, though I haven't found anything immediately decisive.
bucklehead 58 ( +1 | -1 )
The Fundamental Conclusion I think that, despite the dispute about the relative merits of various deep-ish positions, the general conclusion is that 3...Qe7 is just not very good for black. White's aim should be to build a developmental advantage and (wherever possible) use tactical pin threats along the e-file to strengthen his position.

I think we could probably spin out lines from here to doomsday and still come to the same conclusion. And I don't know about the rest of you; but when it comes to my opening preparation, this is about as much time as I like to spend on a rare and weaker line.