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gibo 72 ( +1 | -1 )
what do you play to the caro? as white im having a bit of difficulty against the caro. I used to play nc3 knights takes e4 and then drift to a position where white coloured bishops come off and black as very good control of d5 and i find it very hard to play this position. I have taken a look at the attacking e5, but this leads to a lot of complications and i think black often has good play in the centre. I dont really like the look of the panov-botvinik attack (thats where white takes e5 then plays c4 isn't it) because i dont really like playing with isolated pawns. Can someone please help. What do all you high rated players play on the white side of the caro?
loreta 25 ( +1 | -1 )
I'm not top rated, but As usually I play 3. Nc3 variation {after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5} and think it's the best {at least, it gives slight but a long term pressure}. Eventually, I try 'fantasy' {that's 3.f3}. And, in contrary to others, I think a Panov attack is good enough for White - just it's not in fashion now.
baseline 7 ( +1 | -1 )
there are alot of good lines againt the Caro-Kan I like 1.e4 c6 2.c4 it allows for several devious transposition!
smolensk 2 ( +1 | -1 )
An intersting line is 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3
v_glorioso12 16 ( +1 | -1 )
i like... i think its called the breyer variation. 1.e4 c6; 2.d3 d5; 3.Nd2.... then continue with moves like c3, Ngf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0, Qe2, Re1, e5, Bf4 and play it like a King's Indian Attack position
caldazar 26 ( +1 | -1 )
gibo What advantages do you feel most comfortable possessing and exploiting (e.g. space, two bishops, initiative, inflicting bad pawn structure on your opponent, etc...) and what advantages are you normally willing to concede to your opponent in order to secure play of your own?
budakkampung 0 ( +1 | -1 )
my choice.. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4. Bd3 ..
anaxagoras 15 ( +1 | -1 )
budakkampung Why trade White's good bishop for Black's bad bishop? White will be weak on the white squares and Black won't have any trouble developing.
budakkampung 11 ( +1 | -1 )
example of my game Board #1043037
Board #919699

although these game is not a good one .. but i think it demonstrate the idea of 4.Bd3
budakkampung 18 ( +1 | -1 )
i'll try to paste it again board #1043037
board #919699
budakkampung 27 ( +1 | -1 )
anaxagoras yeah.. it is true that the white square is weak.. but what about black square..
space advantage on king side.. bind at the centre. What about black 's dark square bishop ..

This is chess.. everything have compensation.


gibo 16 ( +1 | -1 )
has anyone ever tried e4 c6 de d5 e5 bf5 Nf3. This is a very simple and playable position. I'm not sure what whites plan is from this possition though.
peppe_l 152 ( +1 | -1 )
Budakkampung After 4.Bd3 Bxd3 5.Qxd3 e6 Black can use Qa5(Qb6)-Qa6 maneuver to force the exchange of queens and cause further weakening of light squares in White position. Then he will simply go for his "usual" plan - c5 to increase the pressure against d4-pawn and open the c-file for his rooks. Black dark-square bishop will be pretty good piece, certainly better than White dark-square bishop. Space advantage on kingside is not so important here because after the queens are gone it will be hard to generate any kingside play. If White refuses to swap queens, Qa6 controls light squares and prevents castling, plus for example after 6.Nf3 Qa5-Qa6 White queen has no good place to go anyway.

Qa5-Qa6 maneuvre was found by Capablanca a long time ago and it pretty much put an end to the popularity of 4.Bd3

Also in practise (at amateur level) I have found 4.Bd3 very easy to play against. IMO 4.Nf3 followed by 5.Be2 is more challenging, White plays somewhat slowly but it is not so easy for Black to generate counterplay.

BTW it seems Advance is still very popular, even though 3.e5 is a good move I am wondering why so many 1.e4 players (who presumably like open games?) choose to close the centre...in fact some time ago it was so popular some time ago that when playing blitz in net I used to move the cursor to Bc8 (3...Bf5) after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5, because I knew everyone was playing 3.e5 anyway :-) Nowadays you get main line and Panov too, so you dont really know what your opponents is going to play...
budakkampung 64 ( +1 | -1 )
peppe_l thanks for your info.. thats why instead of Nf3 i prefer Ne2 ... and the other knight on d2..
where white have choice to play f4.. or Nf4 , Ng3 or maybe Nec3 if allowed...
IMO...
This pawn setup is almost like playing French Tarrasch .. except there is no more light square bishop for both side.... ... it will be a little bit hard for black to undermine the centre with f6 which is quite usual in French Tarrasch..
due to the potential weakness on e6... the d4 square is not too hard to defend..
It is very true that balck can have a good play on c file.. but the rook takes time to be connected with other rook.....
caldazar 104 ( +1 | -1 )
"BTW it seems Advance is still very popular, even though 3.e5 is a good move I am wondering why so many 1.e4 players (who presumably like open games?) choose to close the centre...in fact some time ago it was so popular some time ago that when playing blitz in net I used to move the cursor to Bc8 (3...Bf5) after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5, because I knew everyone was playing 3.e5 anyway :-) Nowadays you get main line and Panov too, so you dont really know what your opponents is going to play..."

Probably just the influence of fashion in grandmaster games. Players were having good practical success with the Caro-Kann Advance, so everyone else adopted that particular bit of opening repertoire as well. Sort of like the way the King's Indian Defense isn't played quite so much at the lower levels today because some grandmasters have dropped the defense due to White's success (in the Bayonet Attack and Classical variations, if I'm not mistaken). Not exactly the most rational of reasons, but that's fashion for you.
peppe_l 50 ( +1 | -1 )
Caldazar Yep, I guess KID is not as popular as it used to be. Still, at least when I play in net KID setup is still more popular choice against my 1.c4 than all the other options (1...e5, 1...c5, 1...e6, 1...c6 etc) combined! :-) For some reason it is not so popular here in Finland, dunno why. Also here you get other responses as well, like 1...c5 etc. But go to play blitz in net and pretty much everyone plays 1...Nf6 2...g6 3...Bg7 4...0-0 followed by d6-e5.

Luckily I like playing vs it, otherwise I might get bored of 1.c4 :-)

Well this was somewhat off-topic so lets go back to Caro-Kann...
mester 22 ( +1 | -1 )
Usually I can play the line:
1. e4 c6
2. d4 d5
3. Nd2 dxe4
4. Nxe4 Bf5
5. Ng3 Bg6
6. Ne2

Ne2 aiming for Nf4 with a plan to weaken my opponents king's side. In a recent game it followed:
6. ... e6
7. Nf4 Nf6?
8. h4 h6
9. Nxg6 and with later Bd3 pressure I had a pretty much won game.
anaxagoras 25 ( +1 | -1 )
mester and others Here are some interesting lines from your suggestion:

after 6...e6

7 Nf4 Qc7
8 h4 Bd6
9 Nxg6 hxg6
10 Ne4 Bf4
11 g3 Bxc1
12 Qxc1 Nf6

and...

6 N1e2 Nf6
7 Nf4 e5
8 Nxg6 hxg6
9 dxe5 Qa5+
10 Bd2 Qxe5+
11 Qe2 Qxe2+
12 Bxe2 Nbd7

and...

6 N1e2 Nf6
7 h4 h6
8 Nf4 Bh7
9 Bc4 e6
10 Qe2 Bd6
11 Be3 Nbd7
12 Ngh5 Nxh5
13 Nxh5 Rg8
premium_steve 13 ( +1 | -1 )
it's probably terrible, but i always try to play the same thing as white 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5,Bf5 4.h4
now i need to find moves to play if black plays 3...c5
caldazar 182 ( +1 | -1 )
gibo Well, since you didn't really respond with what types of positions you were aiming for, I'll try to draw some conclusions from your posts.

You seem to not want to concede significant assets to your opponent and so appear to be satisfied with simply an equal game or perhaps a miniscule positional edge. If that's the case, then the Advance with Nf3 and Be2 is probably what you want. Black's play unfolds rather slowly (although 3. e5 doesn't come with tempo, unfortunately, so White is not super-speedy either), and White winds up with plenty of time to mobilize and try to stir up trouble before Black gets fully settled. There are some sharp ideas in in the Advance based around variously timely g4-pawn thrusts, but as I've never played them, I can't comment on them.

I personally favor the Panov. It's not necessarily any stronger or more testing than other Caro-Kann lines, but it gives White real attacking chances. First off, not all Panov structures result in an isolated d-pawn; sometimes White plays c5 with queenside play. But more importantly, the curious thing is that even with the isolani, Black spends time blockading and/or attacking the pawn and White spends time defending it, but it turns out to be rather risky for Black to actually snatch the pawn in many cases. Usually, Black has to be content to apply pressure against the isolani and only capture it after White's attacking potential has died down substantially, usually after some piece trades have occurred and some sort of late middlegame or endgame is in sight. Which is the traditional way of handling the isolani, of course, but there's a lot of game to play between the opening and the endgame.
gibo 23 ( +1 | -1 )
in answer to your question caldazar, i like sharp lines, with attacking play, which is generallyt a result of kings castled on either side of the board. I prefer tactics over postitional play.
caldazar 55 ( +1 | -1 )
Well, the Caro-Kann Advance has some fairly sharp lines based around 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nc3 intending g4 and f-pawn pushes (sometimes with h-pawn pushes). I find it strange that you don't care for the Panov, though. Sharp attacking play often requires material sacrifices, and a pawn is a pretty small material investment if you wind up having to let the isolated pawn go (assuming of course you obtain adequate play for it, of course). Snatching a pawn when your opponent has good piece activity can be a dangerous venture.
gibo 25 ( +1 | -1 )
yes caldazar but i dont really like playing with isolated pawns, my only problem with the advanced is black often gets good play in the centre i dont know a whole lot about this line though
caldazar 81 ( +1 | -1 )
Well sure, when White sets up with pawns on d4 and e5, one of Black's natural pawn configurations is e6, d5, and c5. It's a tad slow, though. Compare this to the French where all three pawns are positioned in one move apiece and the bishop, stuck behind Black's pawn chain, is also not subjected to attack by White's kingside pawn advances. With something like Nc3 (to guard e4) and then g4 and f2-f4-f5 in the Caro-Kann Advance, White's playing to drop a bomb on e6 (and in the Caro, Black's more active bishop is on g6 or h7, not guarding e6 as it does in the French).

The Caro-Kann is a sound defense and you're not going to get an attack for free. You have to concede some play to Black if you expect to have reasonable attacking chances, whether it be play in the center, play against a pawn weakness, or something else.
anaxagoras 39 ( +1 | -1 )
"Compare this to the French where all three pawns are positioned in one move apiece and the bishop, stuck behind Black's pawn chain, is also not subjected to attack by White's kingside pawn advances"

Perhaps I'm pointing out the obvious, but it is hardly a weakness for Black that his QB is *outside* the pawn chain in the caro kann defence, regardless of White pawn attacks.
caldazar 79 ( +1 | -1 )
Well, certainly the bishop itself is much more useful overall outside the pawn chain than stuck on c8 or d7 behind the f7-e6-d5 pawn chain. In fact, in the Caro-Kann, Black's light-squared bishop is a very powerful piece and so in a number of lines White takes steps to either harass the bishop or exchange it off altogether. And all other things being equal, Black would rather has his bishop outside the pawn chain in the French too. But the point is that all other things are not equal; Black has to buy this usefulness by giving up something, namely time. Time that White can sometimes use to good effect to generate play that will offset Black's advantages (as it should be; you give up something to get something to gain something).
gibo 17 ( +1 | -1 )
ok im gona take a bit more of a look at the advanced variation. But we must remember if both players play correct white should get a small edge in all openings