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ordinary_man 43 ( +1 | -1 )
Crushing the king's indian I know that the king's indian is a sound defense, but it also has a reputation of being very risky for black. I want to crush it if I can with the white pieces, but I am not sure which of the many variations to play against it as white.

Anybody have any insider knowledge about this or any experience with good success beating the king's indian? Particularly which variations were/are successful.

Thanks.
atrifix 2 ( +1 | -1 )
Try Saemisch lines: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3.
bigmick 18 ( +1 | -1 )
I've had some luck with... the fianchetto variation. I'm no expert, mind you but it its worked for me in the past.

Take a look at:

www.chessplayer.com/kingindian3g3.htm
maykx 12 ( +1 | -1 )
atrifix... ...will try that particular line in one of my games hoping to "crush" somehow this king's indian defence.
ordinary_man 52 ( +1 | -1 )
I have thought about the Saemisch It looks like a strong opening, because white has an extremely solid pawn center, while black is relying on a 'recoil' effect pushing his pawns later, I think this is the line they talk about giving black cramping problems with a large space disadvantage. I have also heard talk that the 'bayonett attack' is a very dangerous white attack on the King's indian, does anyone know exactly what line this is?
v_glorioso12 22 ( +1 | -1 )
u r talking about KID? KID is THE BEST!!!! if white establishes a big pawn center, black can always play moves like a5. b5, g5, h5, etc. to take it out! if white declines the pawns, and he pushes the pawns, they normally become weak! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! i love the KID
atrifix 24 ( +1 | -1 )
Bayonet has been in vogue recently. It runs: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. 0-0 Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 10. b4. (Early 10. b4 characterizes the Bayonet).

I always enjoy the Saemisch, tends to lead to extremely sharp and double-edgede positions where each player attacks on either side of the board.
edmaster 3 ( +1 | -1 )
USE THE SAEMISCH! FISCHER HAS HAD PROBLEMS WITH IT!
triangulator 7 ( +1 | -1 )
I will play someone 1800+ as black against the saemish ordinary_man or anyone else-
nottop 112 ( +1 | -1 )
kid I would suggest not attempting to "crush" or "refute" the KID.
The KID is a sound and respected defense, played by the greatest players.
I had a recent tournament where I attempted the Bayonet attack against this defense. The Bayonet has a great reputation and a good statistical rating.
My opponent played precisely and I realized I had nothing at all. I also realized, he had other options that fully equalized.
Better than to try and refute this opening is to find the approach, as white, you are most comfortable with.
The fianchetto is reasonable and might be of appeal.
Bg5 is also reasonable and might be of appeal.
In the mainline, Korchnoi has come up with some ideas that might be of appeal.
All of these are reasonable tries.
I suggest looking at the style of the games that suits you best, since there is no objective answer.

Unless someone can show me a good line, I think the Samisch is inferior to the above atempts. I tried this twice, recently, as white. I was lucky to draw these games. I also played it as black and won the game. These were all against player rated 2400+.

Look somewhere else.

ordinary_man 27 ( +1 | -1 )
to be totally honest with you, Chris I am most comfortable with the fianchetto variation, and this was what I was considering, but wrote this post because I thought there was something better...I think I will stick with it as I am most comfortable with it. Thanks for your advice everybody.
ordinary_man 0 ( +1 | -1 )
alright, Triangulator! you're on!
destinthevaliant 3 ( +1 | -1 )
GAH! what is the king's indian?
atrifix 43 ( +1 | -1 )
KID I completely disagree that the Saemisch is "inferior" to other lines (nor is the Bayonet). Of course, the KID is perfectly reputable and you can't just "crush" it because you want to. Of course, if you feel more comfortable playing the Fianchetto variation, then you should play it. But the Saemisch and Bayonet lead to a perfectly playable position, as playable as the Fianchetto or Averbakh variations.

In short, play whatever you feel comfortable with--chess is a draw.
nottop 65 ( +1 | -1 )
Tournament: WC 24 (quarter finals)
Place: ICCF - email
White: Savic, Dragon (2400)
Black: Sergel, Chris (2498)

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 c5 7. dxc5 dxc5 8. Qxd8 Rxd8 9. Bxc5 Nc6 10. Nd5 Nd7 11. Bxe7 Nxe7 12. Nxe7+ Kf8 13. Nd5 Bxb2 14. Rb1 Bg7 15. Nh3 b6 16. Be2 Bb7 17. O-O Rac8 18. Rfc1 Nc5 19. Nf2 Ne6 20. Nd1 Be5 21. Bf1 f5 22. N1c3 fxe4 23. fxe4 Nc5 24. Be2 h5 25. Rf1+ Kg7 26. Rbd1 Bxc3 27. Nxc3 Nxe4 28. Nxe4 Bxe4 29. Rfe1 Rxd1 30. Rxd1 Bf5 31. Kf2 Kf6 32. Rd5 Be6 33. Rd4 Rc5 34. Bd3 Ra5 35. Bb1 g5 36. h4 gxh4 37. Rxh4 Bg4 38. Rh1 Ke5 39. Re1+ Kd4 40. Re4+ Kc3 41. Ke3 Bf5
0-1

(So what do you think of your Samisch?)
(Could white have done better? Maybe he could have scraped up a draw. Unless you are comfortable playing this sort of game - look somewhere else - like the fianchetto or Bg5 or the mainline).
caldazar 93 ( +1 | -1 )
nottop, a few short comments about that KID game Yeah, White probably had a draw. Just glancing over things, on move 22, instead of N1c3, perhaps 22. exf5 first, and then after 22... gxf5 23. N1c3. Not a huge deal, but at least it's one less pawn weakness to deal with. White would still have to work to contain Black's piece activity, but at least he would still have an extra pawn and the knight on d5. 26. Rbd1 doesn't look quite right either, since it ended up trading down to an endgame where White had the inferior pawn structure; the c4-pawn didn't help White's bishop much either.

Pretty typical gambit-style play; Black gives up a pawn and gets decent piece activity in return. If "grab a pawn and resist until the endgame" isn't your style, there's always 7. Nge2, intending Qd2 and O-O-O with a much sharper game.
triangulator 1 ( +1 | -1 )
I agree with atrifix
destinthevaliant 6 ( +1 | -1 )
can someone please explain to me what the king's indian is?
premium_steve 7 ( +1 | -1 )
i always play whatever variation this is as white:
1.d4,Nf6 2.c4,g6 3.Nc3,Bg7 4.e4,d6 5.Be2,o-o and then 6.Bg5
caldazar 42 ( +1 | -1 )
The King's Indian The King's Indian Defense (KID) is characterized by the setup ...Nf6, ...g6, ...Bg7, ...d6, and ...O-O. It is a defensive setup against 1.d4 (usually White will play d4, c4, Nc3, and e4, setting up a large center). The KID is a flexible system that initially makes no great commitments regarding pawn and piece deployment. Black's chief aim in the KID is to wait until White has committed himself to a course of action and then to counterattack against that particular White setup.
destinthevaliant 4 ( +1 | -1 )
thanks, but what does O-O mean?

destinthevaliant 19 ( +1 | -1 )
actually...lol...I'm not familiar with all the Nf6 stuff...what does it mean? I know f 6 is on the board but the N? Gah it's all too confusing (can't you tell i'm new at this stuff)

is there some place that will teach me?
caldazar 18 ( +1 | -1 )
Tutorial on Chess Notation info.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/notation.txt

Algebraic notation is the standard notation used today.
ordinary_man 73 ( +1 | -1 )
I have come around... I started out hating the king's Indian after my first few experiences with it as black, then my contempt for it became apparent when I had the white pieces and I always seemed to be overly agressive and play right into black's hands, so I posted this in an attempt to find the KID's weaknesses, and I was surprised to find that although it has weaknesses, none of them are too serious and it is still considered a sound, (and sharp) opening. Now, I am finally considering taking up the old defense again as black!

I am getting tired of queen's indian games, etc. i want something sharper and I don't particularly like defending against the queen's gambit. So I will give the King's Indian a try.

Fischer and Kasparov believed in it, and who's to argue with them? :)
triangulator 0 ( +1 | -1 )
polmariov-karamnik
sneaky 132 ( +1 | -1 )
Saemisch is the CRUSHER Yes folks this is the line that strikes fear into the
hearts of every KID player:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3.

How can that little move "f3" be so diabolical? 5.f3
does a lot more than prevent ...Ng4. White is
suggesting a plan that will pit the players in a
dreadful fight where every tempo means the
difference between life and death.

The plan runs something like this: Black will
eventually play O-O and probably ...e5 (to prevent
white from playing e5), then try to activate the
Q-side with moves like ...a6 and ...b5. So White
plans on castling long O-O-O and setting up a
queen+bishop battery with Be3 and Qd2. White will
start a pawn storm with g4, h4, and h5. White will
try to trade off that defensive KID bishop with Bh6.

Finally White can deal a knockout blow in several
ways: imagine the position with rooks on g1 and h1
and you can see the possibilities for decisive
sacrifices come alive.

I speak of this opening with great affection because
years ago, when I really stunk at chess, I learned
this stuff and a lightbulb went off in my head. It
was the first time I saw an opening with a
long-range plan that I could understand. I've been
getting better ever since, and to this day I take
delight in combatting players who adopt the KID
formation.
triangulator 4 ( +1 | -1 )
it is good against the sicilian do you ues the same ideas: sac a pawn on h5 etc.
caldazar 26 ( +1 | -1 )
Samisch + Yugoslav Attack Yes, the ideas can be very similar. Just don't get carried away; White's king is potentially less safe on the queenside in the Samisch than in the Yugoslav (not that the White king is particularly safe in the Yugoslav Attack) due to the early c4 by White in the King's Indian.
sneaky 84 ( +1 | -1 )
quite correct O-O-O is usually not enough, Kb1 is also almost
always required.

The reason, in my opinion, why white can get away
with this is that Black has weakened his kingside
pawns with ...g6, providing a ready made target.
Black must spend time to induce a similar weakness
on White, since just pushing queenside pawns (...a6
...b5 ...b4 etc) will not necessarily accomplish
anything. With that in mind, one of the worst
moves White can make in these positions, from a
positional point of view, is a3.


Some KID players so much fear these lines that they
take uncessary precautions against O-O-O before
the move has even been played. If Black launches a
quick and massive queenside demonstration, before
you even castled there, you might be safer in the
middle, or simply by playing Kf1.
ordinary_man 76 ( +1 | -1 )
I succeeded with the Samisch! I played an otb tournament game and did very well with the Samisch opening, not only did I have a big advantage in space, I also had much more active pieces and a strongqueenside attack which won me a full pawn and gave my opponent no compensation...

He agreed that I had a winning position after the opening...but I missed a combination revolving around a trap set for my queen which won him a full bishop and gave him awesome piece activity which decided the game. Afterward, we analyzed the game and we both agreed I could have easily avoided his combination, and had a winning position, both materially and positionally.

So, while I love the samisch after this experience, I also realized I need to study tactics and combinations more heavily!!!
maykx 29 ( +1 | -1 )
this Saemisch against KID.... ....is interesting. I can't comment or give a sound advice guys. Just want to read this forum.

Sneaky, please continue your lecture. Are there any other important aspects that we have to remember aside from, of course, you have posted above?
triangulator 4 ( +1 | -1 )
what is this?? 1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nf3 Bg7
4. g3 d6
5. Bg2 O-O
6. O-O Nb-d7
7. Nc3 e5
8. e4 exd4

this is not a line I know??
nottop 88 ( +1 | -1 )
Fine It is a fine line (but unusual).
Black can exchange on d4. It is not exactly in the "spirit" of the king's indian but it has been played many times by many good players.
It sets different strategies for both white and black. The game is going to be more open. The strategies are more complex - not just - white goes to the queenside, black to the kingside.
If you are playing white in this line, the single thing you should keep in mind is that all the strategies are changed.
I've played this line twice and had reasonable games - I think if white does not adjust the thinking, then black can get a good game.
There are a lot of databases on line that are free - it might be worth your time to check these out.
In this line, Bishops are more valuable than in the normal KID - you will be playing on the whole board - not just the queenside.
Good luck
triangulator 67 ( +1 | -1 )
here is proof the KID is a tough nut to crack! Event "King's Indian Defense"]
[Site "board #469728"" target="_blank">gameknot.com/chess.pl?board #469728";]
[Date "2002.12.08"]
[White "ordinary_man"]
[Black "triangulator"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1817"]
[BlackElo "1808"]
[TimeControl "1/259200"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Termination "normal"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 d6 5. Bg2 O-O
6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 exd4 9. Nxd4 Nc5 10. Re1 Nfd7
11. b4 Na6 12. a3 Nb6 13. Bf1 c5 14. bxc5 dxc5 15. Ndb5 Qxd1
16. Rxd1 Bg4 17. Re1 Be6 18. Be3 Nxc4 19. Bxc4 Bxc4 20. Rad1 Rad8
21. a4 b6 22. Rd2 Nb4 23. Red1 Rxd2 24. Rxd2 a6 25. Nd6 Bxc3
26. Nxc4 0-1
blunders 5 ( +1 | -1 )
hmmm . is the four pawn attack any good for white?
triangulator 27 ( +1 | -1 )
I dont know I have played the KID a few times, mostly transposing from a modern or pirc, I lost to the 4 pawns attack 1 time and won the other, both were good games It is a little more double edged I perfere just haveing 3 pawns out to begin with
atrifix 5 ( +1 | -1 )
Four pawns more often than not transposes to a Benoni.
triangulator 2 ( +1 | -1 )
that is cool I can play the benoni
sneaky 189 ( +1 | -1 )
Continuing with my Saemisch Lecture =) maykx <<Sneaky, please continue your lecture. Are
there any other important aspects that we have to
remember...?>>

OK here's a few more pointers for "Saemisch Attack,
with O-O-O"

#1 - The square e2 is critical in this variation. It is
like a thoroughfare for your entire army. Your
queen, your knights, your king's bishop, they all may
need to pass through this square at some point. A
move like Be2 in this line can be very bad, as you
can't afford to keep that square occupied for very
long.

#2 - It may seem as if you are neglecting
development and pushing too many pawns. This is
somewhat true but (a) with the center static after
...e5 and d5, this is not so important, (b) your rook
becomes activated after you play h4 and h5,
therefore it is a piece that you can develop without
even touching it.

#3 - Also consider delaying the development of your
King's bishop. It's a very bad piece that you should
be happy to swap for a knight.

#4 - Keep your pawns "flat" in front of your king
unless you absolutely have to do otherwise. One big
advantage in this line is that he has weakened his
kingside and you haven't, so keep it that way!

#5 - moves that you want to play to get your
kingside attack rolling: g4, Ne2, Ng3, h4, h5. That
one move, Ng3, is critical--otherwise Black answers
h4 with h5!

#6 - Eventually you should play Bh6 and knock his
bishop out of the game, if he lets you. (Some
players play an early Re8 to prevent that, but that
has its own weaknesses as the e-file tends to be a
poor place for the rook to occupy.)

#7 - A tactical motif that emerges in this attack
frequently is Nf5! or Nh5!, the idea being that if the
g-pawn takes the knight the open file will be deadly
against the king. Sometimes this works in
conjunction with Rg1, so that the recapture is with
check.

Enough hints! I fear that my gameknot archrivals
are taking notes!! =)
atrifix 136 ( +1 | -1 )
Saesmich Most of sneaky's comments are on track, but I think a couple have notable exceptions:

"#4 - Keep your pawns "flat" in front of your king
unless you absolutely have to do otherwise. One big
advantage in this line is that he has weakened his
kingside and you haven't, so keep it that way! "

White has played c2-c4, which is certainly a weakening. In addition, chess is full of examples of moving pawns in front of your king--usually a2-a3 or even a2-a4 sometimes to prevent moves like Nb4 and b7-b5. More common than those, however, is the move c5. This occurs quite frequently in the Saemisch even with queenside castling and it's a good idea to be aware of it. Usually White won't play any of these moves, but these come up quite often.

"#5 - moves that you want to play to get your
kingside attack rolling: g4, Ne2, Ng3, h4, h5. That
one move, Ng3, is critical--otherwise Black answers
h4 with h5! "

Answering h4 with h5! is not necessarily good :) White first has the option in some cases to open the g-file with gxh5, or just to play Ng3 or something similar and answer hxg4 with fxg4 (possibly sacrificing a pawn), although this weakens e4. The point is simply that just because Black plays h5 doesn't necessarily make it good.
sneaky 104 ( +1 | -1 )
agreed atri,

first, yes, c4 is a big weakness. And yes, you will
find yourself forced to play a3 or b3 from time to
time. My point is, don't be in a hurry to play these
moves--sometimes it seems to help by keeping that
annoying knight away, but often the pawns march
on your position and you're worse off than if you
just let the knight drop in. If you can defend with
pieces, or with Kb1, then do it that way. But if a3 is
the only move to keep the wolves from the door,
then by all means, play a3!

also you are correct about your second point--yes
its somewhat foolish to discuss moves like "Ng3!"
without referring to actual positions. I have a
position in mind where what I said is 100% true but
clearly there are other lines where ...h5 is not such
a good move.

Keep in mind, many KID players welcome the opening
of the g-file. They play Kh7 and Rg8 and are quite
secure.

So to generalize my rule, let's say put it this way:
"Before you play h4, consider whether or not ...h5 is
a strong reply. If it is, you may want to play Ng3
first."

Happy checkmating!