43 ( +1 | -1 ) Crushing the king's indianI know that the king's indian is a sound defense, but it also has a reputation of being very risky for black. I want to crush it if I can with the white pieces, but I am not sure which of the many variations to play against it as white.
Anybody have any insider knowledge about this or any experience with good success beating the king's indian? Particularly which variations were/are successful.
52 ( +1 | -1 ) I have thought about the SaemischIt looks like a strong opening, because white has an extremely solid pawn center, while black is relying on a 'recoil' effect pushing his pawns later, I think this is the line they talk about giving black cramping problems with a large space disadvantage. I have also heard talk that the 'bayonett attack' is a very dangerous white attack on the King's indian, does anyone know exactly what line this is?
22 ( +1 | -1 ) u r talking about KID?KID is THE BEST!!!! if white establishes a big pawn center, black can always play moves like a5. b5, g5, h5, etc. to take it out! if white declines the pawns, and he pushes the pawns, they normally become weak! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! i love the KID
7 ( +1 | -1 ) I will play someone1800+ as black against the saemish ordinary_man or anyone else-
112 ( +1 | -1 ) kidI would suggest not attempting to "crush" or "refute" the KID. The KID is a sound and respected defense, played by the greatest players. I had a recent tournament where I attempted the Bayonet attack against this defense. The Bayonet has a great reputation and a good statistical rating. My opponent played precisely and I realized I had nothing at all. I also realized, he had other options that fully equalized. Better than to try and refute this opening is to find the approach, as white, you are most comfortable with. The fianchetto is reasonable and might be of appeal. Bg5 is also reasonable and might be of appeal. In the mainline, Korchnoi has come up with some ideas that might be of appeal. All of these are reasonable tries. I suggest looking at the style of the games that suits you best, since there is no objective answer.
Unless someone can show me a good line, I think the Samisch is inferior to the above atempts. I tried this twice, recently, as white. I was lucky to draw these games. I also played it as black and won the game. These were all against player rated 2400+.
Look somewhere else.
27 ( +1 | -1 ) to be totally honest with you, ChrisI am most comfortable with the fianchetto variation, and this was what I was considering, but wrote this post because I thought there was something better...I think I will stick with it as I am most comfortable with it. Thanks for your advice everybody.
3 ( +1 | -1 ) GAH! what is the king's indian?
43 ( +1 | -1 ) KIDI completely disagree that the Saemisch is "inferior" to other lines (nor is the Bayonet). Of course, the KID is perfectly reputable and you can't just "crush" it because you want to. Of course, if you feel more comfortable playing the Fianchetto variation, then you should play it. But the Saemisch and Bayonet lead to a perfectly playable position, as playable as the Fianchetto or Averbakh variations.
In short, play whatever you feel comfortable with--chess is a draw.
(So what do you think of your Samisch?) (Could white have done better? Maybe he could have scraped up a draw. Unless you are comfortable playing this sort of game - look somewhere else - like the fianchetto or Bg5 or the mainline).
93 ( +1 | -1 ) nottop, a few short comments about that KID gameYeah, White probably had a draw. Just glancing over things, on move 22, instead of N1c3, perhaps 22. exf5 first, and then after 22... gxf5 23. N1c3. Not a huge deal, but at least it's one less pawn weakness to deal with. White would still have to work to contain Black's piece activity, but at least he would still have an extra pawn and the knight on d5. 26. Rbd1 doesn't look quite right either, since it ended up trading down to an endgame where White had the inferior pawn structure; the c4-pawn didn't help White's bishop much either.
Pretty typical gambit-style play; Black gives up a pawn and gets decent piece activity in return. If "grab a pawn and resist until the endgame" isn't your style, there's always 7. Nge2, intending Qd2 and O-O-O with a much sharper game.
6 ( +1 | -1 ) can someone please explain to me what the king's indian is?
7 ( +1 | -1 ) i always play whatever variation this is as white: 1.d4,Nf6 2.c4,g6 3.Nc3,Bg7 4.e4,d6 5.Be2,o-o and then 6.Bg5
42 ( +1 | -1 ) The King's IndianThe King's Indian Defense (KID) is characterized by the setup ...Nf6, ...g6, ...Bg7, ...d6, and ...O-O. It is a defensive setup against 1.d4 (usually White will play d4, c4, Nc3, and e4, setting up a large center). The KID is a flexible system that initially makes no great commitments regarding pawn and piece deployment. Black's chief aim in the KID is to wait until White has committed himself to a course of action and then to counterattack against that particular White setup.
4 ( +1 | -1 ) thanks, but what does O-O mean?
19 ( +1 | -1 ) actually...lol...I'm not familiar with all the Nf6 stuff...what does it mean? I know f 6 is on the board but the N? Gah it's all too confusing (can't you tell i'm new at this stuff)
Algebraic notation is the standard notation used today.
73 ( +1 | -1 ) I have come around...I started out hating the king's Indian after my first few experiences with it as black, then my contempt for it became apparent when I had the white pieces and I always seemed to be overly agressive and play right into black's hands, so I posted this in an attempt to find the KID's weaknesses, and I was surprised to find that although it has weaknesses, none of them are too serious and it is still considered a sound, (and sharp) opening. Now, I am finally considering taking up the old defense again as black!
I am getting tired of queen's indian games, etc. i want something sharper and I don't particularly like defending against the queen's gambit. So I will give the King's Indian a try.
Fischer and Kasparov believed in it, and who's to argue with them? :)
132 ( +1 | -1 ) Saemisch is the CRUSHERYes folks this is the line that strikes fear into the hearts of every KID player:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3.
How can that little move "f3" be so diabolical? 5.f3 does a lot more than prevent ...Ng4. White is suggesting a plan that will pit the players in a dreadful fight where every tempo means the difference between life and death.
The plan runs something like this: Black will eventually play O-O and probably ...e5 (to prevent white from playing e5), then try to activate the Q-side with moves like ...a6 and ...b5. So White plans on castling long O-O-O and setting up a queen+bishop battery with Be3 and Qd2. White will start a pawn storm with g4, h4, and h5. White will try to trade off that defensive KID bishop with Bh6.
Finally White can deal a knockout blow in several ways: imagine the position with rooks on g1 and h1 and you can see the possibilities for decisive sacrifices come alive.
I speak of this opening with great affection because years ago, when I really stunk at chess, I learned this stuff and a lightbulb went off in my head. It was the first time I saw an opening with a long-range plan that I could understand. I've been getting better ever since, and to this day I take delight in combatting players who adopt the KID formation.
4 ( +1 | -1 ) it is good againstthe sicilian do you ues the same ideas: sac a pawn on h5 etc.
26 ( +1 | -1 ) Samisch + Yugoslav AttackYes, the ideas can be very similar. Just don't get carried away; White's king is potentially less safe on the queenside in the Samisch than in the Yugoslav (not that the White king is particularly safe in the Yugoslav Attack) due to the early c4 by White in the King's Indian.
84 ( +1 | -1 ) quite correctO-O-O is usually not enough, Kb1 is also almost always required.
The reason, in my opinion, why white can get away with this is that Black has weakened his kingside pawns with ...g6, providing a ready made target. Black must spend time to induce a similar weakness on White, since just pushing queenside pawns (...a6 ...b5 ...b4 etc) will not necessarily accomplish anything. With that in mind, one of the worst moves White can make in these positions, from a positional point of view, is a3.
Some KID players so much fear these lines that they take uncessary precautions against O-O-O before the move has even been played. If Black launches a quick and massive queenside demonstration, before you even castled there, you might be safer in the middle, or simply by playing Kf1.
76 ( +1 | -1 ) I succeeded with the Samisch!I played an otb tournament game and did very well with the Samisch opening, not only did I have a big advantage in space, I also had much more active pieces and a strongqueenside attack which won me a full pawn and gave my opponent no compensation...
He agreed that I had a winning position after the opening...but I missed a combination revolving around a trap set for my queen which won him a full bishop and gave him awesome piece activity which decided the game. Afterward, we analyzed the game and we both agreed I could have easily avoided his combination, and had a winning position, both materially and positionally.
So, while I love the samisch after this experience, I also realized I need to study tactics and combinations more heavily!!!
29 ( +1 | -1 ) this Saemisch against KID........is interesting. I can't comment or give a sound advice guys. Just want to read this forum.
Sneaky, please continue your lecture. Are there any other important aspects that we have to remember aside from, of course, you have posted above?
88 ( +1 | -1 ) FineIt is a fine line (but unusual). Black can exchange on d4. It is not exactly in the "spirit" of the king's indian but it has been played many times by many good players. It sets different strategies for both white and black. The game is going to be more open. The strategies are more complex - not just - white goes to the queenside, black to the kingside. If you are playing white in this line, the single thing you should keep in mind is that all the strategies are changed. I've played this line twice and had reasonable games - I think if white does not adjust the thinking, then black can get a good game. There are a lot of databases on line that are free - it might be worth your time to check these out. In this line, Bishops are more valuable than in the normal KID - you will be playing on the whole board - not just the queenside. Good luck
67 ( +1 | -1 ) here is proof the KID is a tough nut to crack!Event "King's Indian Defense"] [Site "board #469728"" target="_blank">gameknot.com/chess.pl?board #469728"] [Date "2002.12.08"] [White "ordinary_man"] [Black "triangulator"] [Result "0-1"] [WhiteElo "1817"] [BlackElo "1808"] [TimeControl "1/259200"] [Mode "ICS"] [Termination "normal"]
5 ( +1 | -1 ) hmmm .is the four pawn attack any good for white?
27 ( +1 | -1 ) I dont knowI have played the KID a few times, mostly transposing from a modern or pirc, I lost to the 4 pawns attack 1 time and won the other, both were good games It is a little more double edged I perfere just haveing 3 pawns out to begin with
5 ( +1 | -1 ) Four pawnsmore often than not transposes to a Benoni.
2 ( +1 | -1 ) that is coolI can play the benoni
189 ( +1 | -1 ) Continuing with my Saemisch Lecture =)maykx <<Sneaky, please continue your lecture. Are there any other important aspects that we have to remember...?>>
OK here's a few more pointers for "Saemisch Attack, with O-O-O"
#1 - The square e2 is critical in this variation. It is like a thoroughfare for your entire army. Your queen, your knights, your king's bishop, they all may need to pass through this square at some point. A move like Be2 in this line can be very bad, as you can't afford to keep that square occupied for very long.
#2 - It may seem as if you are neglecting development and pushing too many pawns. This is somewhat true but (a) with the center static after ...e5 and d5, this is not so important, (b) your rook becomes activated after you play h4 and h5, therefore it is a piece that you can develop without even touching it.
#3 - Also consider delaying the development of your King's bishop. It's a very bad piece that you should be happy to swap for a knight.
#4 - Keep your pawns "flat" in front of your king unless you absolutely have to do otherwise. One big advantage in this line is that he has weakened his kingside and you haven't, so keep it that way!
#5 - moves that you want to play to get your kingside attack rolling: g4, Ne2, Ng3, h4, h5. That one move, Ng3, is critical--otherwise Black answers h4 with h5!
#6 - Eventually you should play Bh6 and knock his bishop out of the game, if he lets you. (Some players play an early Re8 to prevent that, but that has its own weaknesses as the e-file tends to be a poor place for the rook to occupy.)
#7 - A tactical motif that emerges in this attack frequently is Nf5! or Nh5!, the idea being that if the g-pawn takes the knight the open file will be deadly against the king. Sometimes this works in conjunction with Rg1, so that the recapture is with check.
Enough hints! I fear that my gameknot archrivals are taking notes!! =)
136 ( +1 | -1 ) SaesmichMost of sneaky's comments are on track, but I think a couple have notable exceptions:
"#4 - Keep your pawns "flat" in front of your king unless you absolutely have to do otherwise. One big advantage in this line is that he has weakened his kingside and you haven't, so keep it that way! "
White has played c2-c4, which is certainly a weakening. In addition, chess is full of examples of moving pawns in front of your king--usually a2-a3 or even a2-a4 sometimes to prevent moves like Nb4 and b7-b5. More common than those, however, is the move c5. This occurs quite frequently in the Saemisch even with queenside castling and it's a good idea to be aware of it. Usually White won't play any of these moves, but these come up quite often.
"#5 - moves that you want to play to get your kingside attack rolling: g4, Ne2, Ng3, h4, h5. That one move, Ng3, is critical--otherwise Black answers h4 with h5! "
Answering h4 with h5! is not necessarily good :) White first has the option in some cases to open the g-file with gxh5, or just to play Ng3 or something similar and answer hxg4 with fxg4 (possibly sacrificing a pawn), although this weakens e4. The point is simply that just because Black plays h5 doesn't necessarily make it good.
first, yes, c4 is a big weakness. And yes, you will find yourself forced to play a3 or b3 from time to time. My point is, don't be in a hurry to play these moves--sometimes it seems to help by keeping that annoying knight away, but often the pawns march on your position and you're worse off than if you just let the knight drop in. If you can defend with pieces, or with Kb1, then do it that way. But if a3 is the only move to keep the wolves from the door, then by all means, play a3!
also you are correct about your second point--yes its somewhat foolish to discuss moves like "Ng3!" without referring to actual positions. I have a position in mind where what I said is 100% true but clearly there are other lines where ...h5 is not such a good move.
Keep in mind, many KID players welcome the opening of the g-file. They play Kh7 and Rg8 and are quite secure.
So to generalize my rule, let's say put it this way: "Before you play h4, consider whether or not ...h5 is a strong reply. If it is, you may want to play Ng3 first."